Getting Notes You Don’t Understand (part 2) – Ep #16

:: 00:10

Hello, improvisers.

:: 00:11

This is season 2 of the Neurodiversity & Improv Podcast.

:: 00:17

Welcome back.

:: 00:19

This is episode number 16.

:: 00:21

I'm Janda Hahn, and I'm a Neurodivergent Improvisor.

:: 00:25

And I'm about to just let go of all this information and dump it all over you about the intersection of improv and neurodivergence.

:: 00:37

These episodes are intended to help improvisers of all neurotypes, since Neurodivergent and Neurotypical humans are all on teams and in classes together.

:: 00:49

That's right.

:: 00:49

If you're a Neurotypical, you're a Neurotype.

:: 00:52

It's everyone.

:: 00:53

Before we get started, real quick, I'm only speaking for myself and my own lived experience in these episodes.

:: 01:00

Everyone's experiences are very different based on both their neurotype and their background and their own support needs.

:: 01:10

My ideas in these episodes and those of any guests or any submitted ones that we hear won't be right for everyone.

:: 01:18

The words I use and the things I do are just my own preferences.

:: 01:22

What works for me based on that lived experience.

:: 01:26

I am not telling you what to do.

:: 01:28

So just throw away or adjust anything if that's not right for you.

:: 01:34

Again, this is just one, I'm just one Autistic ADHD Improvisor who lived and were brought up and socialized a certain way.

:: 01:42

So please don't diagnose yourself or anyone else using this podcast.

:: 01:46

Talk to someone a lot smarter than me for diagnosis therapy or advice.

:: 01:52

And finally, these points are just explanations.

:: 01:55

I'm not making excuses for anyone.

:: 01:58

I'm just explaining and info dumping.

:: 02:01

Neurodivergent humans can't change how we're wired, but we can understand how we're wired a little bit better.

:: 02:07

Improv is great for that and work with it the best that we can.

:: 02:12

And finally, if you find this podcast useful, I'd really love it if you'd share it with your friends or rate and review it on Apple podcasts.

:: 02:20

If you're able to support my work at neurodiversityimprov.com, that too is always really appreciated.

:: 02:26

Any of these things will help me keep it going.

:: 02:30

And with that, out of the way, let's get started with episode number 16.

:: 02:39

Alright, so for this episode, I'm going to go over things that students might experience and things that students might want to try for when they get some notes in a session that they just don't understand.

:: 02:55

It's a very common problem.

:: 02:56

It's one I've had lots of times.

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And for these episodes, I'm going to say seen or set interchangeably, and I'm going to say teacher, coach, director interchangeably.

:: 03:07

The specifics are not relevant to this conversation.

:: 03:10

I'm just talking about any scenario where an improviser is getting some advice or feedback on their craft.

:: 03:17

In the previous episode, episode number 15, I went over just what this problem is and why it's not as simple as just saying, well, just ask the question.

:: 03:27

What's the problem?

:: 03:28

Just ask.

:: 03:28

It's not as simple as that for many reasons.

:: 03:31

And I cover those reasons in the first part of the series, which is episode 15.

:: 03:37

So feel free to go back and listen to that.

:: 03:40

It will help make this one make a little bit more sense.

:: 03:44

And in the next episode, I'm going to go over what schools and teachers, coaches can consider to support their neurodivergent students a little bit better or things that they might want to talk with other teachers and coaches in their community about what they can do to maybe make things a little bit easier for everyone.

:: 04:05

So I'm going to talk about what kind of support some of us might need in a class.

:: 04:11

There's no perfect class and no one's asking or expecting a perfect class.

:: 04:15

There will be unmet needs.

:: 04:17

There will be conflicting needs in a class.

:: 04:21

That's something that we don't talk about.

:: 04:22

What I don't think enough in Improv is that your need might go completely against my need.

:: 04:29

There's not going to be any perfection anytime soon.

:: 04:32

There will be always things that some of us just can't do well, can't understand.

:: 04:38

Well, some things will be challenging for the teachers.

:: 04:41

Some things will be challenging for the students.

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And that's part of the beauty of diversity really for all of us.

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But it's also, of course, the challenge of it for all of us.

:: 04:54

But we can certainly try to make things as good as possible.

:: 04:59

We can try to meet as many needs as we can.

:: 05:03

And that's enough.

:: 05:05

So this is some of the things that I think M equals one, I'm just one improviser, needs in a class when it comes to receiving notes.

:: 05:13

And I'll go into detail about why for instructors in the next episode.

:: 05:17

But this is an overview of some of the needs and why they exist.

:: 05:23

And of course, some of these might not be relevant to you, but know that perhaps some of your teammates or classmates or students might be experiencing some of these.

:: 05:31

So directness, number one, what happened in the scene for one, direct either from the players or the coach and directness in what the teacher or coach thinks that could make the scene better.

:: 05:45

And adding why whenever possible.

:: 05:48

Say what it is, because sometimes it's not obvious to a neurodivergent brain.

:: 05:53

What else do we need?

:: 05:54

Understanding.

:: 05:55

Understanding from the person in charge in the room, the teacher, the coach.

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Understanding that verbal abilities within the scene and outside of the scene can differ.

:: 06:06

Understanding amongst everyone that processing delays and differences exist.

:: 06:12

This can be for a variety of reasons.

:: 06:16

Audio processing, text processing, all these kind of different processing things can have delays.

:: 06:23

And those delays can be for different reasons too.

:: 06:25

Like the delays might just be that you're on just on a day where a meltdown might exist, and you're kind of thinking about that.

:: 06:33

You might be distracted about that.

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It might be hyper focus.

:: 06:36

It might be sensory stuff going on in the room.

:: 06:39

There might be a sound going on that.

:: 06:42

That's the only sound you can hear in the moment.

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So there's just lots of reasons that processing can be difficult.

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And extending from the processing thing, knowing that students might think details first before the high level gist, this can affect how long it takes to figure out the scene.

:: 07:01

So this has to do with bottom up and top down thinking.

:: 07:05

I have some episodes in season one about this.

:: 07:08

I will link them in the show notes.

:: 07:11

In a real quick nutshell, if you're bottom up processing, you're thinking about all the details in order to get to the high level gist.

:: 07:19

So if you're thinking about a scene, you're not thinking about that high level overall, what it was about.

:: 07:24

And you're probably going to be hearing that in the notes, what the high level gist of the scene was about.

:: 07:30

You might not get there yet because you're still kind of processing those details.

:: 07:34

And lastly, understanding that being perceived is a thing for some of us.

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And some things like being misunderstood can often lead to a lot of anxiety or a lack of willingness to engage in this part of the class in this context.

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So being perceived as a neurodivergent person can be a lot.

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And that's everybody's eyes looking at you.

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And you know you're misunderstood.

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You know you're not good at asking questions.

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And you have a whole audience that you have to do it in front of.

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So all of these bullet items, for those of you out there coaching or teaching with a little bit more detail, but why these exist and a few suggestions for addressing them on that side.

:: 08:21

But understanding that they exist in the first place is the big one here.

:: 08:25

And again, this isn't a complete list by any means.

:: 08:28

I also encourage you to let me know what I'm missing, because I know that I'm missing stuff.

:: 08:35

Please let me know what that is, because I'd love to include and talk about it a little bit more in maybe another episode.

:: 08:42

So you get to the end of the scene, you get some notes, you know that you need some kind of clarification because it doesn't make sense to you.

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What can happen in the classroom, in this situation of you're going to ask something?

:: 08:58

So there's the reality of a class to consider.

:: 09:01

There's feelings, there's the issue of respect, there could very well, there is, there's the hierarchy and social order of things, there's the history and culture of improv.

:: 09:16

It's very complicated.

:: 09:19

It might not be too complicated if you're in a level 1 class, there's your intro class and you've never done improv before, but the further that you get into improv, the more of this seems to exist because you start learning about it or you start encountering it.

:: 09:34

Like when I was new to improv, I had no idea what a note even meant or what questioning the note was.

:: 09:41

That wasn't something in my vernacular yet and now it very much is.

:: 09:45

So say a question was asked because that good faith question clarification was needed to process a note that was given.

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Now, I've witnessed like defensiveness from veteran teachers.

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Even when the student reiterated several times, directly using the phrase, they aren't questioning the note.

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They agree with the note that was given.

:: 10:06

They just don't understand it quite yet.

:: 10:09

Several times, super clear, that language was being used and this was brought up throughout the class several times.

:: 10:17

So it was very important to the student in this case to understand before they moved on, because they really, what I thought, they really wanted to apply it, and I think they wanted to apply it during the class to try to practice that difference.

:: 10:33

Despite the clarification, and I don't know, to me, it seemed like a good faith question.

:: 10:37

The teacher really dug in on the defensiveness.

:: 10:40

I think I kind of understood what both sides of this were getting at.

:: 10:45

No one was wrong here, but there is just seemed to be a gap in translation between the two neuro types.

:: 10:53

And I think like I could kind of understand both languages in this case, and it really seemed to just be kind of a language difference in this case, even though everyone's speaking English.

:: 11:06

The teacher thought that their expertise was being challenged.

:: 11:09

That was my takeaway.

:: 11:11

Now I could be wrong, but that seemed to be what was happening.

:: 11:17

And everyone got upset, and it also took quite a bit of time in the class.

:: 11:23

I didn't care about that, but it just it did.

:: 11:26

And there's other cases that you might see where people are cut off.

:: 11:31

Students are cut off in the middle of asking a question.

:: 11:34

Maybe this is done because an assumption was made about where that question was going to go, or maybe it could be more simple.

:: 11:42

Like this is going to take up too much time in class and we need to move on.

:: 11:46

There's many possibilities for this, but that is something else that can happen.

:: 11:51

And it's tough to read those situations because oftentimes, if you're the student that this is happening to, you're not too sure why you're cut off.

:: 12:00

And that can lead to a lot of rumination, right?

:: 12:03

Like if you've had this happen to you, you might be remembering it in a negative way.

:: 12:08

It could be as simple as time management or it could be something else that they thought that this was a bad faith question or they thought that you were going to complain about a scene partner and upset them.

:: 12:19

Who knows what?

:: 12:20

That can be a difficult thing to encounter as well.

:: 12:24

It can lead to a lot of rumination, a lot of negativity.

:: 12:27

It might even lead to a student not wanting to ask a question at all in the future.

:: 12:32

I've also heard similar stories on Improv subreddit where somebody seemed to typecast early on in a series of classes as a note questioner and they tried to ask good faith questions later on in the class and it seemed to be typecast in a negative light by the teacher because they couldn't get any feedback after that early point and that can lead to difficulty not just in that class series but future classes.

:: 13:02

So all these scenarios are hard and we quickly kind of learn maybe some sort of social cultural thing in Improv and we might be learning perhaps as students that it's rude to seek understanding or clarification in a note that we don't understand.

:: 13:21

I mean there is after all what we hear don't question the note and that can kind of that can lead to just never understanding certain notes.

:: 13:32

So we might stress about that we might have some anxiety about not coming across a certain way, tiptoeing around these sort of things, or it might just give us a lot of dread about ever needing to seek that clarification to understand.

:: 13:48

And I'm hoping that we're not questioning the note.

:: 13:51

That doesn't serve anyone.

:: 13:53

If you do understand something and it's not right for you, don't question it, just throw it away.

:: 13:58

Don't note your scene partners unless you're in a really trusted understanding room and you've all made the decision to do that.

:: 14:08

That's absolutely fair.

:: 14:10

But if you haven't, try not to question your scene partners when you're asking questions during the note point.

:: 14:15

And of course, if that doesn't work for you, throw away my notes.

:: 14:18

All right.

:: 14:19

So now we're going to talk about what you can do as a student when you do need clarification.

:: 14:27

So in the case that I mentioned earlier, the student very clearly said that they weren't questioning the note.

:: 14:33

They said that several times during this class.

:: 14:37

And in that case, I honestly don't have any recommendations.

:: 14:42

As far as I can see, I think that student did exactly the right thing.

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I admired what they did.

:: 14:50

I admired their courage of trying to get that answer for themselves.

:: 14:55

They were clear.

:: 14:56

They were calm.

:: 14:57

They said that they weren't questioning the note.

:: 14:59

They explained why they were seeking an answer.

:: 15:03

They explained what they didn't understand.

:: 15:05

Unfortunately, it just wasn't heard.

:: 15:07

I would recommend trying that even though it didn't work for them.

:: 15:11

I think it's important.

:: 15:12

The reason I'm sharing this case, obviously with no names, is because I want to note that it's not always going to work.

:: 15:20

I mean, we're dealing with different people.

:: 15:21

We're dealing with different cultures and locations and all that sort of thing.

:: 15:25

So none of these things are ever going to be perfect because nobody's the same.

:: 15:29

Obviously, everything is a risk.

:: 15:31

I think it was a great way to approach this issue, but just know that it might not work.

:: 15:37

And if it doesn't, maybe throw away the question or maybe try a different way.

:: 15:43

If it doesn't work the first time, maybe ask if you can send an email later on or ask after class or ask someone else.

:: 15:53

Maybe the communication isn't going to work.

:: 15:56

Maybe the neuro types are too far apart.

:: 15:58

So maybe try another way.

:: 16:01

And for the Redditor who seemed to kind of get typecast as maybe, maybe typecast as a note questioner, I think in that case, it might be best to just not ask.

:: 16:13

If you try during a different format and it still doesn't work, maybe it's just you need a different teacher.

:: 16:20

That is always a thing in Improv as well.

:: 16:23

We're not going to have a match in every single class for teaching style or communication style, and it's okay to try other teachers and try other theaters.

:: 16:33

And that's actually a really good thing.

:: 16:36

I've only had good experiences by having a wide range of teachers, because I find the ones that work really well for my style and my needs in notes, because that's how we're learning most of the time is through getting these notes and processing them and using the ones that work well for us.

:: 16:54

So find those teachers that you do sync with quite well in communication and just understand that there is going to be a communication gap.

:: 17:04

And we can try to make it better, but it might not always work.

:: 17:08

And when you do find something that works for you, that is a good, safe place to take bigger swings, to ask those questions with a little bit more comfort.

:: 17:20

If you experience a lot of stress being, for example, in classes where there's more rotation of teammates and scene partners and teachers, maybe forming a practice group and finding a coach that understands your team and there's a lot more safety and openness and communication.

:: 17:40

Sometimes just sort of changing the way you do improv can be helpful for this kind of thing.

:: 17:46

You might be able to have a conversation with a coach that understands you better and understands that you are asking questions in good faith, that you aren't trying to question them or question their expertise when you are in a practice session, a group that goes for a year and a half, right?

:: 18:06

Like that it keeps going.

:: 18:07

So also think about the context where and how you're doing improv.

:: 18:13

If you run into these issues and see if you can adjust that way.

:: 18:18

If it's an option, sometimes going private or going offline with your teacher is another option or a better option for these sort of things.

:: 18:27

So if there is a communication breakdown, maybe verbal isn't the way to do it.

:: 18:32

Or maybe in a space where you're being perceived by all your classmates, for example, that might be adding some anxiety that makes the question a lot harder.

:: 18:42

See if you can go offline.

:: 18:44

For example, see if you can email the teacher with a shortened to the point query or speak to them after class without those other people around.

:: 18:53

Teachers I know are really happy to help with any good faith question, no matter where or how it's asked.

:: 18:59

So if you send something outside the class that gives you the option to really think it out in advance, you might not have to be, for example, as cautious about seam partners, right?

:: 19:10

Like accidentally kind of noting them through the question.

:: 19:13

This can all have some benefits.

:: 19:15

But of course, there is a risk here that the scene might not be as fresh in everyone's memory.

:: 19:20

So on that note, what can we do?

:: 19:23

We can try to take a note of the comment or the context during the class with as much detail as you can formulate the question later on.

:: 19:32

So you might take a note on your phone or however that works for you, piece of paper, whatever.

:: 19:39

You might say in the moment to the teacher, hey, could I ask you about the scene later on?

:: 19:43

That might help them tag that scene in their brains to remember a little bit more.

:: 19:48

Mull it over.

:: 19:49

Take your time.

:: 19:50

Pull together what the question is into a really clear and concise package as much as possible.

:: 19:56

That's going to help with any gaps in communication.

:: 20:00

All of this, of course, it gives you the chance to think things through a little bit.

:: 20:04

And you might have a question that's a little bit more relevant to your needs later on anyways.

:: 20:10

Maybe this helps you identify what the real issue is without the stress of being in a room with everybody's eyes on you.

:: 20:19

And of course, ask other people for advice.

:: 20:22

Maybe you can take that question out of the context of the scene.

:: 20:26

I know for me, if I give myself some time, I can see kind of what the higher level issue is.

:: 20:33

At least it's that bottom up thinking, I'm just going to start off with all the details or be linking it to that scene.

:: 20:38

But if I give it some time, mull it over, I can see, oh, in a larger big improv context, this is what the issue is.

:: 20:45

And then you can go to anyone, maybe.

:: 20:49

First start with a coach, but then you can go to other people for advice.

:: 20:53

Or even more experienced students that you know or other neurodivergent improvisers, they might understand what that question is.

:: 21:02

See if they've been through a similar experience and they might understand maybe even that communication gap that's happening.

:: 21:09

So some of the other things that you might run into in this space, if you're a student taking a new class, new to you teacher, a new coach, it can be hard to figure out what their style is.

:: 21:24

So feel free to just give it a little bit of time to kind of suss that out or ask them directly what they expect if they're open to questions during that time, if there are other options.

:: 21:36

If they're new, just directly ask them how they like to run a session.

:: 21:42

This is OK.

:: 21:43

If you're unsure and you want to know, ask.

:: 21:45

I can't imagine that that would be an issue to ask early on.

:: 21:50

Of course, if you don't feel comfortable asking, you can just wait it out, see what happens, wait until someone else asks something and see what the reaction is.

:: 21:58

See if you can suss it out.

:: 22:00

But all of us, all of us are humans that vary widely in our responses and stuff.

:: 22:05

There's some teachers and coaches who might want to teach and coach a certain way.

:: 22:12

They might want to optimize the time during the session for getting out reps or something like that and leave questions to the end or whatever.

:: 22:20

There's so much variety in Improv.

:: 22:23

You can also see if if you can find anybody who has had a class or a session with that coach, for example, and see what they can tell you about them.

:: 22:34

And one other thing I just want to add is it's a good thing to kind of see if you can figure out what you're asking is really a question.

:: 22:44

And if you feel like sometimes it's good to take a little bit of a beat and see, do I feel defensive in any way?

:: 22:52

And I think this is where you're sussing out for yourself whether or not this is a good faith question, because it is so easy after a scene is over.

:: 23:02

And you might have thought that scene was great.

:: 23:04

You're getting notes and you're like, Oh, my goodness, what?

:: 23:07

I didn't see it that way.

:: 23:09

And see if you're feeling defensive, because if you do feel like you're a little bit defensive, you check in with yourself, just drop the question for that time.

:: 23:19

You might want to ask it later.

:: 23:20

It might be a valid question, even if you do feel defensive in the moment.

:: 23:24

But just know that right after a scene, you could feel that way because it's heightened emotions.

:: 23:30

You're on the adrenaline of just doing a scene and then you're hearing maybe something that just doesn't connect for you.

:: 23:38

That might not be a communication gap.

:: 23:41

That could also just be adrenaline and emotions, or you might not even understand your emotions yet.

:: 23:48

If you're like me, take a second, just take a beat.

:: 23:51

See if you feel defensive at all.

:: 23:53

And if you do, really consider not asking that question right away.

:: 23:57

Hold on to it.

:: 23:59

Think about it.

:: 23:59

Just ask it a little bit later, maybe after a class or privately or by email, after you've had a little bit more time to figure out what the situation is for you.

:: 24:09

And if you think you might really need to ask, you can maybe try that thing that I just mentioned earlier about pointing out, hey, is it okay if I ask you a question about the scene later on?

:: 24:19

I'm just a little bit confused.

:: 24:21

I want to think it out a little bit more.

:: 24:23

Whatever.

:: 24:24

Most people I could imagine are going to be perfectly fine with that.

:: 24:28

And it's okay if this doesn't work out, right?

:: 24:32

If you don't get a question answered, if you don't ask the question in the first place, this is improv.

:: 24:40

This is something that we're doing for enjoyment, for fun.

:: 24:43

It's make-em-ups.

:: 24:44

It's comedy.

:: 24:45

It's not great for us.

:: 24:47

I don't think as improvisers to stress too much over a scene or a set.

:: 24:52

Even if it was in a show, it's not great to stress and hold on to this stuff.

:: 24:58

Sometimes it's just not going to work out.

:: 25:01

We're not maybe going to get the answer and that's okay.

:: 25:03

We can throw these things away because guess what?

:: 25:06

There's going to be a lot more scenes in our future.

:: 25:08

That's the good thing.

:: 25:09

There's going to be a lot more sets, a lot more people, a lot more coaches and teachers in our future.

:: 25:15

Try someone new if it doesn't work communicating with a particular coach.

:: 25:21

Try something new.

:: 25:22

If you just find yourself getting stressed and not understanding a particular way of doing improv, try something new.

:: 25:30

Get another note later.

:: 25:31

There will always be more notes no matter how long you've been doing improv.

:: 25:36

You'll learn whatever it is at some point.

:: 25:40

Yourself or from a note, that thing that you don't understand could be irrelevant, or it will make itself abundantly clear in three months.

:: 25:50

I feel pretty safe saying that.

:: 25:53

None of my scenes have ever really mattered.

:: 25:56

None of these notes have ever really mattered.

:: 25:59

Not one note altogether.

:: 26:01

They've mattered a lot, but not one note.

:: 26:04

I mean, one note has really stood out.

:: 26:06

I mean, I've had some great notes.

:: 26:09

Wonderful notes.

:: 26:10

And so I'm glad I've got those ones.

:: 26:11

But no one note has made the difference for all of Improv.

:: 26:15

They've all kind of gone together.

:: 26:18

So the scene is going to disappear.

:: 26:20

That note is going to disappear.

:: 26:22

There's always another chance.

:: 26:24

And that's the beauty and the curse of this thing that we love.

:: 26:29

So, improvisers, we've gotten to the end of another episode.

:: 26:34

I want to thank you so much for joining me and listening to these words I say.

:: 26:39

And I just want to remind you that these episodes for this season are going up every second week.

:: 26:46

And you can also find some written stuff on the website, sometimes in between episodes, certainly after this season is over.

:: 26:55

So check it out on neurodiversityimprov.com.

:: 27:01

That's where you can also sign up and get newsletter notifications of these episodes.

:: 27:07

You can become a supporter and get some bonus content, bonus resources in between episodes.

:: 27:15

I will also have surveys up on the website and in the show notes and stuff.

:: 27:21

So look for those on neurodiversityimprov.com.

:: 27:25

I would love to get some feedback from you on these surveys to know what your experiences are, what you want, etc.

:: 27:33

And that will help inform these episodes.

:: 27:35

So it's not just one improviser's thoughts, which will help the community and the conversations that hopefully maybe come out of these episodes.

:: 27:47

For plugs, I also have another couple websites.

:: 27:51

One is called flatimprov.com and that is where there are jams, classes and shows for the improv community.

:: 28:00

I also have another website called stereoforest.com and that's a bunch of actually doing improv.

:: 28:08

Those are shows and podcasts that are improvised.

:: 28:12

So if you are into that sort of thing, check it out at stereoforest.com.

:: 28:18

There is a newsletter you can sign up for notifications of new episodes of those shows.

:: 28:26

And finally, I created and I write this podcast, so you can blame me for all the stuff.

:: 28:31

It's also edited and produced by StereoForest, which is also me.

:: 28:37

I release a bunch of shows and podcasts on that site.

:: 28:40

As I just mentioned, that's improvised comedy.

:: 28:43

So check it out if you're into that.

:: 28:46

Again, this podcast website for this one is neurodiversityimprov.com.

:: 28:51

So do check that out for the surveys, more information and old episodes.

:: 28:57

Thank you so much for joining me.

:: 29:00

My name is Jen and I will talk at you soon.

:: 29:04

Goodbye.