Getting & Giving Notes (part 1) – Ep #15

:: 00:10

Greetings and salutations.

:: 00:12

This is season two of the Neurodiversity & Improv Podcast.

:: 00:16

Welcome back.

:: 00:17

I'm Jan de Haan, and I'm a Neurodivergent Improvisor who is about to info dump all over you about the intersection of Improv and Neurodivergence.

:: 00:31

These episodes are intended to help improvisers of all neurotypes, since Neurodivergent and neurotypical humans are all on teams and in classes together.

:: 00:42

But before we get started, real quick, here's the preamble.

:: 00:46

If you listen to season one, we're doing it again in season two.

:: 00:50

I am only speaking for myself and my own lived experience in these episodes.

:: 00:56

Everyone's experiences are very different based on both their neurotypes, your neurotype and their individual experiences and support needs, whatever they are.

:: 01:07

My ideas in these episodes and those of any guests or submitted ideas that we talk about, won't be right for everyone.

:: 01:16

The words I use and the things I do are just my own preferences, what works for me.

:: 01:21

And though I'm not telling you what to do, just throw away or adjust anything if it's not right for you.

:: 01:28

Again, this is just one Autistic ADHD nerd improvisers lived experience.

:: 01:35

Please don't diagnose yourself or anyone else using this podcast.

:: 01:40

Talk to someone a lot smarter than me for diagnosis, therapy or advice.

:: 01:45

And finally, these points are explanations, not excuses.

:: 01:50

Neurodivergent humans can't change how we're wired.

:: 01:53

We can work with what we got.

:: 01:55

We can understand how we're wired better and work with it the best that we can.

:: 02:02

And finally, if you find this podcast useful, I'd really love it if you'd share this episode with your friends or rate and review it on Apple podcasts.

:: 02:10

If you're able to support my work at neurodiversityimprov.com, that too is really appreciated as always.

:: 02:19

And any of these things will help me keep this thing going.

:: 02:22

So thank you so much.

:: 02:23

And with that out of the way, let's get started.

:: 02:29

So to start off season two, I'm doing a series of episodes about receiving notes as a neurodivergent improviser or giving notes to a neurodivergent improviser.

:: 02:43

Communication between humans in general is hard, but it can even be more difficult to do so effectively if either the improviser or the teacher are different neurotypes.

:: 02:56

There's sometimes a communication gap because different neurotypes fundamentally communicate in different ways.

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So this series is specifically about notes given as feedback or advice or teaching after a scene or set is over.

:: 03:15

Anything that you're doing to communicate, you know, what's happening in the scene or some kind of feedback and encouraging a bit more patience and effort to make sure the communication is effective, so a note can be understood in the first place is really helpful.

:: 03:35

So this series, this mini series, the first few episodes of this season is about understanding the notes and what happens when you don't understand them or your students don't seem to understand the note.

:: 03:52

This episode will be the first of several episodes on this topic.

:: 03:57

In this one, I will explain why this is an issue in the first place and what the issue even is.

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Why do we even need to think about this in improv classes or on teams as performers, students, facilitators, coaches, and teachers and so on.

:: 04:15

In the next episodes, I will talk about what students and teachers could consider regarding this communication gap and how to make classes and sessions better.

:: 04:28

So I'll do these episodes, the various parts, sequentially this time.

:: 04:33

I haven't in the past, I haven't forgotten about some of the parts that I need to finish.

:: 04:38

I will, I promise.

:: 04:39

But at any rate, these ones on notes, I'll do sequentially.

:: 04:43

So you'll get this episode and then the next two are gonna be about the same topic.

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And each of these episodes will be two weeks apart.

:: 04:51

If you're listening to them while I release them.

:: 04:54

I will also link to surveys in the show notes and neurodiversityimprov.com newsletter.

:: 05:02

So you can submit your own experiences and comments and questions or advice regarding getting notes or giving them with people of different neuro types.

:: 05:14

What are your pain points?

:: 05:16

What is difficult for you?

:: 05:17

Let me know in these surveys.

:: 05:19

So let's start off with what is a note.

:: 05:22

In case terminology varies between different regions, notes are feedback or advice provided by the coach, the teacher, the director, facilitator, after, or even during a scene or a set.

:: 05:39

This is when the coach or teacher let the players know what they thought about during the scene and perhaps provide advice on how to make that scene or set better or give you something to work on personally if you're lucky.

:: 05:56

And in these episodes, I will be using scene or set interchangeably and I'll be using the terms teacher, coach, director, interchangeably as well.

:: 06:08

The specifics are not relevant in this conversation.

:: 06:11

I'm just talking about any scenario where improvisers are getting advice or feedback on their craft.

:: 06:18

So this episode is not about what the note is specifically or even how to take or apply a note or whether or not you should.

:: 06:29

For the purposes of this series, this mini series of three episodes, we're assuming that the improviser wants to take the note.

:: 06:40

So, this isn't about figuring out whether a note is inappropriate or appropriate.

:: 06:45

It's just about getting the note in the first place and understanding it.

:: 06:49

An improviser needs to understand the note itself, so they can even have an opportunity to synthesize it and choose whether or not they want to apply it to their practice.

:: 07:02

The improviser could very well understand the note at that point and then figure out that it doesn't apply to their particular brain or practice or whatever else or that note might rock their world or nudge them in a new direction or cause them to sit on their couch and ponder for a few hours and let it melt into the synapses and then have that note magically pop up and apply in the middle of a scene in two weeks time.

:: 07:30

Anyways, once the improviser understands the note, then they can decide whether or not they want to try or use or toss the note.

:: 07:38

And do whatever in their practice later on.

:: 07:41

So that's the justification for these episodes.

:: 07:45

That's why these episodes are hopefully relevant to you.

:: 07:50

So why is any of this an issue anyway?

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Well, there's a communication gap that exists between different neuro types.

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For example, this is quite well understood between Autistic people and Aulistic, which is non-Autistic people.

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For example, I spoke a little bit about this in Episode 13 called Improv and Being Misunderstood.

:: 08:13

And one of the ways I talked about was the double empathy problem, because this is quite well understood and you can find information in scientific literature.

:: 08:24

And I'll get a little bit more into the double empathy problem later in this mini series.

:: 08:29

But for now, many reasons can lead to confusion about what a note means, or how to follow advice, or how to apply it in your improv.

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So the first thing you might be wondering when there is a communication gap between whatever people, why not just ask then?

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That seems like the obvious answer.

:: 08:54

Just ask and you'll find out.

:: 08:57

The person will clarify what they mean or paraphrase, you know, give you what you need to understand.

:: 09:03

Well, as many of us know, asking for clarification or more information, so the improviser receives the note and can try to use that note, can sometimes lead to a problem.

:: 09:16

And many of you might know what I'm talking about.

:: 09:19

You know, you might end up being cut off.

:: 09:22

You might make someone angry.

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You might become, air quotes, the problem.

:: 09:27

The improviser is perhaps seen to be questioning the note.

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So how often is this an issue?

:: 09:36

Am I just talking about an edge case here?

:: 09:37

Well, this will vary and depend greatly on the improviser in question, their individual support needs, the teacher in the room, the style of improv you're doing or how embedded asking questions is in the culture or in that classroom or at that theater.

:: 09:56

How often improvisers even ask questions in the community will of course affect the frequency of other people doing it because it's quite common for one improviser to look and kind of try to read the room about what goes on in this particular culture.

:: 10:14

So asking questions during this time, when you're getting notes is often a loaded issue.

:: 10:22

Even if an improviser asks a genuine good faith question about a note, to clarify, just clarify what it means, it could still be interpreted as questioning the note.

:: 10:34

The teacher might think you're questioning their advice or blaming the scene partner and trying to feel better about maybe their own perceived performance in a scene.

:: 10:46

It might be interpreted as a lack of respect or taking too much time out of the class.

:: 10:51

It might be that simple.

:: 10:53

So there's many different reasons and many different reactions that an improviser might encounter.

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Then another issue here is asking questions.

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Just forming the question can be hard in that moment.

:: 11:09

The improviser might be aware that there's many sensitive areas to consider when asking that question because of this sort of culture that we have about taking the note.

:: 11:21

Then that improviser might have to try to ask in a setting where they're being perceived.

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They're being watched by everyone else in the room, all their teammates or other people in the class.

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And they're also dealing with a well-established power dynamic, maybe a power dynamic that they don't really understand that well yet.

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Or it might be very simple again.

:: 11:43

They might just not want to use up the coaching time.

:: 11:45

They might feel bad that their teammates might be judging them.

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At any rate, it can lead to issues too in the classroom between scene partners.

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Sometimes commenting on it can lead to your teammate thinking that you had a problem with them if you're the one asking the question.

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That is, or they might feel that you thought they ruined the scene or, you know, the teachers might want to keep that to a minimum.

:: 12:10

That might be the teacher kind of cutting off the improviser.

:: 12:13

It might be because they think that this question is leading to something that might be kind of perceived as blaming the other people in the scene.

:: 12:22

However, asking that question, as we know, because this is what the series is about, could lead to that student or the entire team maybe understanding how to apply the note better.

:: 12:33

It might make better sense to them.

:: 12:35

It might make any sense to them if the improviser who that note was directed at just does not understand, it doesn't know how to make the adjustments to correct an issue if an issue needed to be corrected.

:: 12:49

And that's the core point of taking a class or paying for a coach to come in and coach your team.

:: 12:55

So how do we communicate intent?

:: 12:59

How do we communicate that the question is in good faith?

:: 13:02

Because we're assuming for the series that it is, that we're truly just struggling to understand a concept or a direction made by your director.

:: 13:13

Because Neurodivergent Improvisers often communicate in a different way than the majority of the people in the room.

:: 13:21

So it's common for us to just not understand the note or not understand something that happened in the scene to make those notes harder to interpret.

:: 13:32

However, that is the way that it was interpreted by the audience, by the majority of people.

:: 13:37

So it's important for us to get those notes to even understand what's funny or how the audience has seen the scene.

:: 13:45

So you have a question.

:: 13:46

You want to take that note.

:: 13:48

What now?

:: 13:49

There are so many barriers to communication.

:: 13:52

So I'll focus on the neurodivergent aspects, but I want to mention that there are many other ways that humans can miscommunicate.

:: 14:01

Language barriers are one, of course, but there's also demographics, upbringing, culture, age, so many other things that could be some element, some part of a barrier in getting notes and understanding them, just as they are barriers between scene partners.

:: 14:20

All of these barriers can be reduced the better that you know the people that you're working and playing with.

:: 14:26

And this just makes sense because you've had more exposure to them, you've had more time to get to know them and get to know what their social cues might be like, or what their upbringing is, or what their boundaries are.

:: 14:38

Like although all that time really helps you communicate with other people better.

:: 14:43

But as we know in Improv, we're thrown into classes and teams and situations where we haven't had that time yet.

:: 14:49

We might be early in that relationship building.

:: 14:52

And this can cause a barrier to communication, especially if you're neurodivergent.

:: 14:58

Learning theory is another area of difficulty, especially when you're in the earlier stages of learning improv.

:: 15:04

But learning theory isn't necessarily all that accurate or scientific.

:: 15:08

It also isn't specific to neurodivergence, of course.

:: 15:11

It's all learners.

:: 15:12

But I want to acknowledge that it affects learning.

:: 15:15

And I'll put some resources in the show notes and newsletter for you to reference, because learning theory is up to debate in the community.

:: 15:23

So there are some good resources that I've come across.

:: 15:26

I think they're good.

:: 15:27

I don't know.

:: 15:28

They might be useful for you to check out and see how you feel about them.

:: 15:31

But we're going to focus this on communication breakdowns between different neurotypes.

:: 15:37

So what are some of the main issues on this topic for people who are neurodivergent?

:: 15:43

So as I mentioned earlier, things like the double empathy problem and other brain wiring differences can lead to differences in communication and to these barriers and to the gaps that we have.

:: 15:55

There isn't a better or worse way of communicating.

:: 15:59

These two modes are different fundamentally.

:: 16:03

And of course, neurodivergent people being smaller segment of the population, we often end up kind of having to adjust to the norms in the room, the greater number of people.

:: 16:16

This isn't right.

:: 16:17

I'm not saying that this is good or it's fair.

:: 16:19

It's definitely not.

:: 16:21

But that's why oftentimes we are at that kind of deficit in the situation.

:: 16:28

That's why I do these podcasts, is to let people know that this exists and encourage people to try to accommodate themselves.

:: 16:36

Or if you're not neurodivergent, to allow these accommodations to happen.

:: 16:41

So if you're listening to this and you're a teacher, please understand that there's other neurotypes in the room who just might not understand the way things are being explained when it comes to notes.

:: 16:51

So for example, in a nutshell, autistic people experience, we communicate differently, we show emotions in different ways, we engage socially in a different way, and we sense the world in a different way from non-autistic people.

:: 17:06

And all of these things can lead to difficulties in communicating.

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For example, I have an extremely difficult time seeing, noticing, understanding social, like visual, unspoken social cues.

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So if there is a social cue for me to just stop talking, I might not pick up on that for a very long time, like too long, but I cannot see it.

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So it's very hard for me to just practice and try doing that because I just I don't see it.

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It's hard to react to something that you do not see.

:: 17:41

You can try to watch for it, still don't see it.

:: 17:43

So just an example, an honest effort can be made to improve.

:: 17:47

It's not just try harder.

:: 17:49

That doesn't necessarily work when you're fundamentally wired in a different way.

:: 17:54

Explanations, not excuses.

:: 17:57

Therefore, scene interpretation, notes, engaging with other improvisers, especially outside the scene, can impose a challenge.

:: 18:06

And because we are often very aware of being misunderstood due to these dynamics for our entire lives, it can add to the difficulty of this part of the improv learning process.

:: 18:19

And I'm going to be completely open, transparent, vulnerable at this.

:: 18:23

For some of us, like myself, we just give up.

:: 18:26

We don't ask the question.

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And that's too bad because that impacts learning.

:: 18:29

Learning, we're in the class.

:: 18:31

We want to be there.

:: 18:32

We want to learn.

:: 18:33

And it's just so difficult on a social communication.

:: 18:37

We just stop.

:: 18:38

So we know something is off in the scene, and our coach might provide some advice about how to adjust, what went wrong, and occasionally it just doesn't align with the gist that I might have had in my head, because I might have understood things completely different.

:: 18:55

Because again, we communicate in different ways between Neurotypes.

:: 18:59

So I might have thought that the scene was about something completely else.

:: 19:03

I might have thought the game was about something else, or there might have been subtext in the scene, something that wasn't said verbally, and it got missed.

:: 19:12

Everyone else might have understood, but me.

:: 19:14

Or perhaps the coach is just trying to infer something with a bit of subtext themselves, to be socially polite, or a little bit less blunt out of kindness, or just where you're at in the learning process.

:: 19:26

It could be the absolute most appropriate thing to do in that improviser's where they're at in the learning process, but that might be completely lost on them in the moment.

:: 19:38

So they're not going to gain anything from that note.

:: 19:41

Of course, this is just one example of many different types of communication, challenges of different scenarios in improv.

:: 19:49

And I'd welcome you to share some of yours in the survey that I'll link in the show notes.

:: 19:54

And I'd love to share your thoughts on this in a future episode.

:: 19:59

But first, let's talk about why is asking so hard?

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I mean, we ask questions in classes when we're learning all the time.

:: 20:08

Many of us have delayed processing of some kind, difficulty processing things that are described in a certain way, such as directions that are expressed verbally as opposed to by text, or if the directions include a long list of things expressed verbally.

:: 20:28

Very difficult for some brains to interpret or understand.

:: 20:33

There are lots of possibilities here, depending on your spectrum placement or what kind of neurodivergent you are.

:: 20:40

Another one is anxiety.

:: 20:41

Anxiety, of course, can get in the way from all those times we've been misunderstood or framed as the problem, air quotes on that.

:: 20:52

Focus can get in the way too.

:: 20:53

You might be very hyper focused on the scene still or thinking about the question or how to form it.

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That's my hyper focus.

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I'm missing everything.

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Everything else is a blank and this may lead to missing out on a conversation entirely.

:: 21:07

It moves on by the time you're ready to ask a question.

:: 21:11

If I had a penny for every time that happened in my life, too many thoughts also, too many thoughts to even get the question out.

:: 21:19

Trying to account for time, wanting everyone to be clear that the scene partner isn't being blamed for whatever it is.

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How do I get that across?

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How do I make sure I don't throw my scene partner under the bus?

:: 21:32

Trying to loop in what the teacher just said and account for that in the question.

:: 21:37

So I'm not wasting people's time or figure out if my take on the scene was even relevant at this point or even makes sense.

:: 21:45

And of course, trying to ensure that the teacher or the coach or the rest of the team don't think that I'm questioning the notes that were just given.

:: 21:54

And there's so many more examples of what can make asking a question really hard.

:: 22:00

Maybe some of you can relate to one or more of those items.

:: 22:05

Maybe some of you have also encountered a reaction after asking some kind of question.

:: 22:13

And if you have, you know how difficult that experience can be and how that affects you for asking questions again.

:: 22:23

Because it can be if we've encountered some kind of problem in this part of the class, it makes it even more difficult the next time that you try to ask a question, even if it's not with that same teacher or coach or director.

:: 22:38

Yeah, I've had this go south.

:: 22:39

I've seen it go south for other people too, and just watched because that's all I can do.

:: 22:45

And even if you don't process things like I've described earlier, you too have maybe seen or experienced a negative note thing that happens in a session.

:: 22:56

And that can impact you even if you've just seen it.

:: 23:00

And if you're the teacher on this side of things, you might not even realize any of this is going on in the first place.

:: 23:07

I think this has happened to me where I don't think I've, you know, shown it displayed confusion or whatever.

:: 23:16

So I think there's probably a lot of cases where the teacher might not even realize what's happened or maybe they have.

:: 23:22

I don't really know.

:: 23:23

I'm really bad at social cues.

:: 23:25

So what do I know?

:: 23:26

But a lot of people can get frustrated if any of these difficulties go down.

:: 23:30

And this is what I'll talk about in more detail from the student side and the teacher side in the next couple episodes.

:: 23:38

So before we end this episode, I want to just cover what's good about this, because it's not all bad when people are upset or even frustrated about this part of the class.

:: 23:53

It's a very difficult thing for everyone.

:: 23:57

It's difficult for the coach.

:: 24:00

It's difficult for the students.

:: 24:02

It's difficult for teammates at times.

:: 24:05

It's a difficult thing to do.

:: 24:07

But getting frustrated or getting upset, I mean, these aren't positive things.

:: 24:12

I don't want to say this is good, but it means that everyone is caring about this.

:: 24:17

You're caring about your improv.

:: 24:19

You're caring about how you do.

:: 24:21

It's if you just threw away whatever, you're not caring about your practice.

:: 24:25

So if a student is in your group, you're coaching a team and a student's upset, they care about what you're saying.

:: 24:34

And that is a good thing.

:: 24:37

Everybody's listening and they're caring and they want to improve.

:: 24:39

So this isn't all bad.

:: 24:43

There is good.

:: 24:44

People want to take the note.

:: 24:45

So there is some good faith in there.

:: 24:48

Probably, mostly, I hope, mostly good faith.

:: 24:52

So hopefully, all of this defines the issue.

:: 24:56

It's not just as simple as just ask the question, clarify.

:: 25:01

It can be hard for students to just ask.

:: 25:04

Ideally, we'll all get to a place where just asking the question is the easy thing to do.

:: 25:11

And I'm sure in many classes and many cultures and many theaters, that this is true, that you can just ask the question, that it is simple and easy.

:: 25:22

And if you are in that theater, that is amazing.

:: 25:26

If it was something that you needed to get to and you worked on, I would love to hear how you got there because this is something that all of us, the rest of us who may have had some negative experiences would love to fix or would love to get past it in reasonable ways.

:: 25:45

So even if you're a coach that encourages questions and welcomes them in these good places, it might still be hard for the student who may have come from a different culture where don't question the note has been applied to most or all the questions that are asked.

:: 26:05

Or it's possible that you might be welcoming.

:: 26:08

You might be a coach or a teacher that's welcoming the questions.

:: 26:12

You have no problems with them.

:: 26:14

You believe that most things are in good faith or you're not too worried about it.

:: 26:19

Some of your students might not be picking up on those social cues.

:: 26:22

Even though they're clear to most people, there might be some people that don't understand that that's the case.

:: 26:30

So how do we make it more clear that it is the case?

:: 26:33

How do we make some of those cues more obvious to people like me who might not be picking up on them?

:: 26:40

And students, there's a little bit more to just asking the question because it is possible to seed a little bit of discord with your scene partners or teammates that might sort of pick up or think or take that you're noting them through your question.

:: 26:55

You might be.

:: 26:56

I've had this happen too.

:: 26:58

So in the next couple episodes, I'll dive into the student side of the note and the teacher side of the note, the note giving process with what I hope are just some ideas to help avoid some of the issues that I've experienced and witnessed in classes and sessions that I think might fall into this gap of social communication issue between neurotypes and maybe it will lead to a little bit of discussion in our communities that might help reduce some of these issues that I've observed as just one person and equals one.

:: 27:37

That's all I've got.

:: 27:38

So we've gotten to the end of this episode.

:: 27:43

Podcast episodes for this season, we're in season 2, are going to be every second week.

:: 27:50

Next week, I'm going to have some bonus content for the paid supporters.

:: 27:55

And then the following week after that is going to be the next episode in this mini series.

:: 28:02

You can find articles and previous episodes at neurodiversityimprov.com.

:: 28:08

It's a new URL.

:: 28:10

You can subscribe to the newsletter notifications and receive anything I write by emails that you will get if you sign up.

:: 28:19

You can also sign up or subscribe, I don't know, towards extra bonus content.

:: 28:24

Or you can just support the writing by sharing this.

:: 28:28

And of course, if you find this podcast useful to you, please tell your improviser friends.

:: 28:34

Word of mouth is very helpful and much appreciated, as always.

:: 28:40

Reading and reviewing in Apple Podcasts also helps a lot.

:: 28:44

So please consider doing those things if you like this.

:: 28:48

I'll also be adding a survey to the show notes, and you can check out current surveys and stuff.

:: 28:56

I'll put them in the newsletter.

:: 28:58

I'll put them in the show notes.

:: 28:59

And you should be able to find that all at the neurodiversityimprov.com website.

:: 29:04

I'll make a page that has a list to make it a little bit easier.

:: 29:08

For plugs, I have a new website called stereoforest.com.

:: 29:13

I'll link that in the show notes as well.

:: 29:15

That's going to be for improvised podcasts and improvised shows.

:: 29:21

So actually, doing improv.

:: 29:23

Can you imagine doing improv?

:: 29:25

stereoforest.com.

:: 29:27

And finally, I created and write this podcast.

:: 29:30

It's also edited and produced by StereoForest, which is me.

:: 29:33

I release a bunch of shows and podcasts on that site, or it's coming up soon.

:: 29:39

It will probably, there'll be some episodes out.

:: 29:42

I don't know.

:: 29:43

Not long after this is out.

:: 29:45

And mostly improvised comedies.

:: 29:47

So check that out.

:: 29:49

Again, the podcast website for this one is neurodiversityimprov.com.

:: 29:53

It also includes articles about all these subjects I talk about in the podcast.

:: 29:58

And also I made flatimprov.com.

:: 30:00

This is to offer workshops, jams, shows, and more.

:: 30:04

So all these links in the show notes, you get it.

:: 30:07

I can get out of here.

:: 30:08

All right.

:: 30:08

Talk to you soon.